neljapäev, 19. juuni 2008

A feedback about nice guys vs bad-asses and our comments

Got such feedback:

Hello Inno and Irja,

I'm interested in either of you interpreting the problematic issue that many men, particularly the loners, have faced. So many men find themselves in utter despair, asking why is it so that women always go for the tough, bad-ass alpha males while ignoring the shier, more sensitive, more caring and sweeter guys. It's an issue that you might find relevant, since this is one problem that prevents two compatible people finding themselves.

A lot of the how-to-meet-women dating advice I've read on the Internet, always focuses on trying to change the shier and more modest guys into more extrovert, more alpha male like, true studs who can make all women fall for them. I know it's bullshit and very cynical, because those so-called seduction gurus are clearly only in it for the money, because human misery is so profitable after all. In reality, an introvert can never change into an extrovert and shy men can never attain the same level of self-confidence as their more arrogant and cocky male counterparts. What we need to do is to stop feeding this monstrous one-size-fits-all culture that says there's only one personality type that deserves to live life to the fullest while the "misfits" wallow in misery. Ergo, my motive for writing this is not to ask advice myself. Rather, I hope that by channeling your attention to address this particular nice-vs-bad-guy dilemma, I could potentially be helpful for those who might benefit from what you have to say about relationships. Just as overlooked as the topic of mutual compatibility between partners, is the issue on how is it possible to find happiness in this society so exacerbated by its bias towards winner-take-all alpha males.

Allow me to make some rather arbitrary classifications. Inno clearly classifies as the nice guy the way I see it. His dad was clearly a dominant alpha male while his mom was an example of a woman who fell for a bad-ass as represented by Inno's dad. And that bad-ass abused the hell out of her. Ergo, Inno set out to be a nice guy. Unfortunately, he then lived 13 years with a dominant female who, again, abused the hell out of him. Irja on the other hand also has a history of falling for dominant males. Her history of former boyfriends includes all sorts of suspect contingent from mobsters to playboys. Inevitably, it seems like a miracle today in our alpha-male centric world that a nice guy like Inno eventually won the heart of a nice woman who previously fell for more dominant males. Can we draw a conclusion that when two people who are compatible meet they will be drawn towards each other, despite all the dirty seduction tricks employed by manipulative rivals? Do you believe that the Nature has a way to triumph and transcend societal manipulation (because that's what flirting and seduction are: calculated manipulation to win over someone) and draw two people to each other?

What would you say to a guy who is a modest, sensitive, caring and sweet person at heart, but who worries that he may never find anyone as he buys into that sociological dogma that females are hard-wired to attracted to alpha males, those who are most assertive and aggressive? Someone who might believe that his only choices are either faking it and learning how to "toughen up his act" or become celibate for the rest of his life, or maybe even resort to prostitutes should he have enough cash for the occasion. How can a person like himself expect to find a happy, fulfilling relationship in this cold society where instant gratification, desire to own and dominate as well as calculated manipulation cranked up as "seduction" are rampantly widespread?

This problem may even have less to do with self-perception and self-esteem, than with perception of fighting a losing battle against a society that doesn't care at best, satanic forces at worst. That's right, satanic. Because it takes spiritual decay to treat women like an object at best, dirt at worst. What the overrated celebrity figure Aapo Ilves did to someone as criminally underrated as Irja is simply inexcusable! Alpha males who manipulate with women are parasites, because they not only hurt their targets, but their overall influence is detrimental to the kind of men capable of healing these wounds. Because it has been made difficult for these men to break through and find their way to suitable women. So many women who get hooked up with a charming, but brain-damaged abusers, develop a Stockholm syndrome about the abusive alpha-male type. Notice how many of them will never hook up with a sweet guy, because they are too "nice" to be considered as romantic partners! That's terribly sad.

So the essential problem is how can the nice guys, so sidelined by the more arrogant and extroverted warriors, take the power back?

Take care!

Inno's comment:
Hello and thanks for feedback!
This is really an intriguing topic. And I have no good answer. Well, nowadays media has a big impact on how people act and react. Which women and men are nice and which not. And bigger and bigger number of people are dissatisfied with themselves, i.e. their projection from the mirror, the reality. And they have started to reshape themselves, change the reality, its a whole industry emerging from this need for reshape, from dissatisfaction. All these "jobs" with noses, breasts, even sex. Not to mention artificial scents, all kinds of cosmetics. This development is quite interesting. And this industry has more and more power to influence people's minds, to tell what is perfect. And paradoxically this "perfect" is in constant change on the other hand. So there is a constant need to change (and the political change is a minor issue). And pay for this change. And nobody knows where this mess of changes ends up. Hopefully in paradise;)

What I have found, is that in contrary to the conventional wisdom it is easier to find a partner while you are, act and behave like the nature has produced you. With all those "flaws". As the smell some hate might be most attractive for the others. Of course, by deleting your own scent by chemicals that are called deodorants you will be ok for everybody (you might become a president), but thus it is really impossible to attract your perfect partner. This is just one tiny example.

Well, as science develops, it is possible to "change" people so that all women look like Barbie girls with rose scent and all men look like Rambos smelling after musk, all in constant chase for something and somebody, marrying and divorcing again and again, but is this the world everybody likes to live in? I am not so sure about that.

9 kommentaari:

Anonüümne ütles ...

Mees peab naisest üle olema. Nice guy puhul on naine tihti mehest üle. Mees on loodud üle naise domineerima ja naine alistuma. Bad boy on ürgmehelik - kuradi enesekindel (seda loeb välja ka kehakeelest-silmavaatest), impulsiivne, naine ei saa eluilmaski sellist meest kontrollida, ei karda naisi, ei jookse järel nagu tubli kutsu, hoopis on mentaliteediga, et mitte naine pole "auhind" (mille poole tuleb püüelda), vaid tema ise, ei laku naistel perset nende poolehoiu võitmiseks. Nice guy on naise poolt kontrollitav. Ja jällegi jõuame alguse juurde tagasi, mees peab naisest üle olema, mitte kontrollitav olema. Kui on hästi teeniv, kahe kõrgharidusega mees, kuid nice guy, siis jalad võtab naistel nõrgaks ikkagi taltsutamatu paha poiss. Loomulikult läheb ka see nice guy vanemas eas loosi. On stabiilsem, tihti parema sissetulekuga. Fun ja õige isane on ikkagi paha poiss. Looduse vastu ei saa.

Kuidas nad ütlevad "Nice guys finish last!" Jah viimasena. Saavad endale pahade poiste poolt läbitõmmatud naised. Naised, kes on juba palju kõrvetada saanud tõbraste käest, kellel on viimane aeg pere looma hakata. Seega on stabiilsus väga tähtis - nice guy on stabiilne, teenib hästi (haridusest tulenevalt tihti parem töökoht kui pahadel poistel). Nice guy on ka kontrollitav. Ja ka siis võtab ikkagi põlved nõrgaks taltsutamatu paha poiss, mitte see kodus lapsel mähkmeid vahetav ja tolmu võttev nice guy.

Tegelikult ootaks just Irja seletust. Irja pole tavaline naine selles mõttes, et ta julgeb naiste ringkaitsest välja astuda ning rääkida asjadest, kuidas need on. Peale selle on Irjal hea kirjutamise oskus. Olen suhteliselt kindel, et Irja on laias laastus minuga nõus. Nii need asjad lihtsalt käivad. Poliitiliselt täiesti ebakorrektne, kuid tõsi.

Edmund ütles ...

Miks see anonüümne nonsens läbi läks aga mitte see kommentaar mis ma enne kirjutasin? Tegin vist mingi apsaka? A no las ta olla siis. Mis seal ikka.

Mitte keegi pole loodud kellegi üle domineerima. See on valitsevate võimueliitide vale, selleks et inimesi kontrollida. Enamik inimkonna probleemidest on sellest, et me ei tea kuidas teisi võrdsetena näha ja nendega samastuda. Me oskame ainult kas domineerida või alistuda. See on bullshit.

Nagu on bullshit ka need oletused Inno ja Irja suhte olemuse kohta. Esiteks, kas Inno omab võimu Irja üle? Kas Irja alistub orjameelselt Inno tahtele? Kumbki vastus ei? No vot, loll jutt suhu tagasi sel juhul! Ja kust sa tead et Irja sinuga nõus on?

See mis sa ütled, ei ole mingist otsast tõsi! Need on samasugused idiootsed stereotüübid, mille vastu ma trotsi tunnen ja millest mõjutatuna ma ka üldse ka vastava kirja kirjutasin. Ma lootsin, et ehk Inno ja Irja blogi lugejad ikkagi väärtustavad kombekat, inimlikku ja hoolivat käitumist ja põlastavad manipulatiivset künismi.

Aga ei, see sama alfaisaste üks-mõõt-kõigile pask! Ikka see, et alfaisane ruulib ja kõik teised on haledad mõkud! Samas jällegi, ma ilmselt teeksin ikkagi vea, kui otsustaksin Inno ja Irja üle nende austajatest lähtudes. Kuid üleüldse, kas keegi põhjendab mulle loogiliselt ära, miks ma peaksin oma põhimõtted maha müüma, ohverdama oma õilsad seadumused selleks, et mul üldse ühiskonnas hea olla oleks? Miks tuleb mulle aint ühe sama shabloonse mõõduga mõõta?

Ma olen absoluutselt kindel, et kui ma õpiksin selgeks nipid ja feigiksin täiega seda alfaisase asja, siis naine hakkaks ainult armastama minu maski, aga mitte mind ennast. Seda ma ei taha! Kas tõesti usud sa, oo anonüümne ristirüütel, et võlts võib olla sama hea asi, kui ehtne?

Vähemalt Varga Hirmu kommentaarid on mingis mõttes kvaliteethuumor kui ta mingeid jaburaid teooriaid siin käib tutvustamas. See anonüümne nonsens on aga isegi eneseparoodiana läbikukkumine. Kuna inimene ükskord areneb oma evolutsioonilises käigus välja oma primitiivsetest, destruktiivsetest võimutungidest? Võtab see aega miljon aastat? Kui nii siis elu Maal järgneva miljon aasta jooksul jääbki täiega sakkima. :(

Sorry Inno ja Irja kui ma kõlan nii faking pissed off, aga mind ühest küljest kurvastab ja teisalt vihastab, et endiselt on palju idiootseid eelarvamusi inimeste kohta, keda üks mõõt ei suuda kuidagi paika panna, keda siis selle ühe mõõduga brutaalselt vägistatakse. Mina ütlen, et aitab! Kaua võib?!

Anonüümne ütles ...

Sama teema oli siin blogis ka ükskord pisut arutlusel ning mäletan, et Irja lubas tol korral selle teema kohta kirjutada ning jäin huviga ootama, kuid kahjuks ta seda ei teinud. Irja puhul on jäänud mulje, justkui oleks ka tema olnud nooremana just pahadest poistest sisse võetud (need maffiameestest elukaaslased jne.). Samas jälle Inno paistab tõepoolest selline nice guy olema (st. heas mõttes, mitte mingi tuhvlialune).

Edmund ütles ...

Ma olen raskesti klassifitseeritav tüüp. Ma väärtustan austust, kombekust, hoolivust ja ma suudan olla armas. Ma vihkan domineerimist. See vist teeb minust nice guy. Samas ma jälestan, kui mind kamandatakse, kui mulle pähe istutakse. Kui ma peaks dominantse naisega kokku sattuma, siis tema tõelist palet tajudes ma põgeneks kabuhirmus! Või saadaks ta isegi impulsiivselt perse. Ei tea kas see teeb must paha poisi. Vaevalt! Esimese anonüümse kommentaar on minu meelest läbikukkumine, sest see üldistab ja surub raamidesse. Mina nendesse ei sobitu. Maailm ei ole must-valge.

Anonüümne ütles ...

et siis Inno ei oska inglise keelt... nujah... Mitte et ma kahtleks inimese õiguses kohtupidamisele oma emakeeles, aga siis nii öelgegi, mitte ärge mängige lolli. Või, nagu ma juba kunagi soovitasin, tunnistage seda -et jah, see ongi meie eesmärk. nad. Eks inimestena, kes tööd ei tee ja ilmselt hobisid, sõpru jm aega ja energiat nõudvat ei oma, ole teil vaesekestel ju igav ka...

Anonüümne ütles ...

oi kui "ilusa" kirja olete ise endile vastamiseks valmis kirjutanud:D super!

Inno ütles ...

Kirjutame me endale jee.

Irja ütles ...

Kas kuulsid, stereom, sind nimetatakse meiks:))))!

Irja ütles ...

Minu maffiameestest on võib-olla jäänud vale mulje. Kui ma nendega tuttavaks sain, siis ma ei teadnud, kellega tegu, täitsa tavalised kutid olid. Ja ma suhtlesin nendega ainult seepärast, et nad lugesid raamatuid ja olid õrna hingega. Üks koguni puhkes sageli lohutamatult nutma. Nii et ma ei tea, kas nad ikka olid sellised alfaisased. Mind erutasid nad mitte seepärast, et nad olid maffiamehed, vaid seepärast, et nad olid head, ausad ja targad mehed, kel oli rääkida huvitavaid lugusid.